Re: cert discussion

[(John Sechrest) <sechrest@peak.org>]

--------

zwicky <zwicky@pterodactyl.neu.sgi.com> writes:

 % I have no standing in this discussion, but because I have a short
 % attention span for these arguments, I'm going to weigh in anyway,
 % in the hope of making the discussion more interesting to me, and
 % with any luck more useful to the certification question.

	:-) Good one. It really made me enjoy the morning. 
	Nothing like a little focus to liven up the morning. 


...

 % Here are some questions of interest about certification:
 % 
 % 	0) Which of the following best describes your attitude towards 
 % certification?
 % 		a) It's the best idea since sliced bread.
 % 		b) Sure, why not?
 % 		c) It's an OK idea, but there are more important things SAGE
 % 		could be doing.
 % 		d) It's fundamentally meaningless and silly.
 % 		e) It's actively harmful to the profession.
 % 		f) It's morally wrong.

	A-B  (It is important, but it has some challenges 


 % 	1) How much would you be willing to pay for a SAGE certificate?
 % (This to some extent controls possible testing options -- reliably
 % grading essay questions is *expensive*.)

	$100 or so. 


 % 	2) Which of the following best describes your attitude towards
 % multiple-choice testing for certificates?
 % 		a) Sounds like a fine idea to me.
 % 		b) It's pointless, but since the whole thing is pointless,
 % 		why not?
 % 		c) Not only is it pointless, it's offensive and possibly
 % 		immoral. 

	A. Fine by me. I am a list person who likes lists. 


 % 	3) What process should SAGE use to develop and test the tests? Who
 % do we know who knows how other people do this?

	There are many different groups that have done this.
	
	Some are state manadated, like the electrician license
	I got so that I can run networks in Oregon. (you 
	must be a low-voltage electrician to run wires thru
	walls in Oregon). These were created by a state committee
	(I think)
	
	Some are industry related. The ACM has some certificate programs
	that they worked on earlier. I will have to dig some info
	up on this.
	
	One of the certification projects that I worked on that 
	I think is most interesting is the Oregon Tilth Organic
	farm certificate. In order to call your food "organically
	grown", you must follow a set of practices. And those
	practices have to be followed up with tests and inspections.
	The price was set based on the volume of work/fields.
	
	The standards were created by Oregon Tilth thru several
	committees. The standards are upgraded each year. 
	There is an organization of people who are trained
	as inspectors. They go visit and evaluate what people
	are "really doing"
	
	There are many things I think we can gain from this model.


 % 	4) Which of the following models do you prefer?
 % 		a) You must be a SAGE member to get a SAGE certification.
 % 		b) You don't have to be a SAGE member, but we charge 
 % 		extra.
 % 		c) It doesn't matter at all whether or not you're a member.

	B - You don't have to join SAGE, but if you don't you have
		to pay much more. 


 % 	5) Can you give one example of a testing/certification program you
 % think SAGE's should be like, and why?

	In the Oregon Tilth process, the tester is on the field with
	the person who is getting certified (they certify fields
	not people, so it is a bit different)
	
	However, in the process of being in person working with each 
	other, a conduit is built between tilth and the client.
	And as such they have an ongoing relationship. And that
	as things change and things move along, they are able to stay
	informed. 
	
	Certification should have:
		1) Some personal interaction with the certifying organization
		2) Different levels of certification
		3) Ongoing review of the  standards
		4) breadth of context in the evaluation phase. 
  
   
 % 	6) Can you give one example of something you think is horribly
 % wrong with an existing testing/certification program, which SAGE
 % should avoid doing?

	In the Microsoft Certified Professionals program and
	in the electricians testing , the test questions are often 
	context specific and basically come out of the book
	as memorization. 
	
	Since System administration requires thinking on your 
	feet, the testing methods should provide a way that people
	from a wide variety of systems and context can still
	pass the evaluation.
	
	


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